Excellent piece Joshi. My worry is the endless enquiries, and their limited scopes, and the complexity of them only feeds the story that this is a cover up being buried by bureaucrats. The politics of populism, by its nature, is a demand for easy answers to complicated questions, of which this is one depressing example.
Yeah, one person said to me: if they get a national inquiry, the people around Miah will denounce it as a cover up and will demand the UN gets involved. There's a huge amount of bad faith in this campaign, as well as some genuine demand for justice by survivors and others.
Indeed. The Barrow case (where Ellie Williams made multiple false accusations) demonstrates exactly this. There was a Channel 4 documentary this week. Even after her conviction, there are people who refuse to accept the verdict and still believe the men are guilty.
Sorry, I don't agree. The purpose of any inquiry would not be to shut Miah or Musk or Robinson up, but to get to the best truth available and to persuade anyone tempted to follow them that there is "nothing to see here". Pointy heads do what pointy heads do. Musk's global megaphone makes him dangerous, and a full and open inquiry a la Horizon almost certainly cannot be gainsaid.
Oh sure. Have an inquiry if that's what the democratic will is. I'm just saying that Miah will denounce it as another extension of the cover up because he simply does not have the evidence to support even a fraction of what he claims happened in Oldham.
And just to be clear, I don't advocate an inquiry because of public clamour. I want an inquiry to (a) get to as much of the truth as possible; and (ii) to persuade the UK voting population that Musk, Robinson, maybe Farage\Tice etc have the wrong end of the stick. If we followed public clamour, we'd be hanging people...
If you and Miah have a "he said\she said" now, you haven't really got anything to defeat him (apart from your journalistic integrity) as you are really pointing to an absence of evidence. After a full inquiry finding whatever it finds, his "it's all a cover up" looks weak. Of course he'll say that, and maybe Musk will too, but there will be a body of evidence, and an investigatory process, that they can be pointed to.
That was a wonderful piece of journalism....picking a route amongst the vitriol. Inquiries by politicians should follow the evidence. It is not the role of inquiries to be secondary police forces.
Our problem is that there have been cover-ups in various parts of the country. That creates suspicion in a society where multiculturalism as a concept is looking rather ragged. There is a broader problem that the police are no longer trusted. The justice system is not now seen as blind. It is viewed as prejudicial.
These suspicions and views hack away at the very base of society and community.
Politicians of all flavours have taken the electorate down a dark road. The way back is not to reinforce suspicions with censorship or labelling of doubters...it is to ensure that the blindfold is restored to justice so that there can be no suspicion of one racial or religious group being treated more or less favourably than another. It is justice that is under assault. Politicians just want to keep their careers on track. In many electoral colleges that creates a conflict of interest.
The other dynamic to appreciate is that the US has a long and storied history of, especially, right wing public figures jumping on highly emotional stories (generally involving rape, child abuse and exploitation , women - particularly allegations of abuse of white women by men of color) to obscure their own appalling misogyny. Let us not forget that Musk is an endorser of Andrew Tate and in the US has promoted profoundly misogynistic and degrading images of women. Part of the Trump 1 campaign involved the spread of assertions that Hilary Clinton was involved in a widespread child trafficking ring operating out of a Washington DC pizza parlor. This very nearly ended in tragedy when an outraged man stormed the pizza place with a shotgun, terrifying patrons and demanding to see the children they were holding there. There are Americans who still believe and continue to spread the outlandish story that those on the left are pedophiles and that there is merit to the Comet Pizza conspiracy. These people feed on spreading titillating stories that will spark extreme horror and outrage.
Agreed but we had this national self image that Britons were more intelligent than Americans and therefore above these conspiracy stories which is not the case. The power of the Internet to promote gossip which then turns into political discourse has also provided economic opportunities for some with begging bowls being proffered to fund "alternative facts". Musk foresaw the economic value of his platform in disrupting politics in other countries when he seemingly overpaid to buy Twitter.
As we’ve discovered, no western culture is now beyond the reach of social media poison (despite, overall, Brits actually being more intelligent than Americans).. As you say, Musk is above all else a schemer to enrich himself. Having become the richest man in the world he is now setting off to become the most powerful (while actually whining on his own platform when people criticize him). And now there are the hangers on who - with their “begging bowls - are hoping to catch a bit of the wealth and cache.
As always, the comments thread for a Mill piece comprises of rational, thoughtful contributions (and deserved praise for the quality of reporting).
The cause for despair is that the vanishingly small number of people who value sensible discourse, who set enough store by independent reporting to support The Mill, who are largely immune to online grifters and liars, who don't believe in populism...are almost entirely helpless in the face of big-tech, which is now more powerful than any nation state and is running faster and faster into a post-fact world.
We can't kid ourselves that our systems have ever been 'good' with careful consideration, rationality and being led by data and evidence. But we've now reached a point where all of those concepts have disappeared. Only the most money, the most extreme views (or inventions), and the largest megaphone matter.
I realise this commentary seems a little off-topic, but I don't believe it is; the world's richest man is driving the public narrative in a small, disadvantaged area of the north of England. That's terrifying. I wish I could feel more optimistic about human nature, but I really can't see anything other than increasingly dark days ahead for the whole world.
Good article, well researched and adding for me a new dimension to the current national/international coverage on the matter: one of the reasons I continue to subscribe to The Mill. It could do with a proof read though.
As before the Iraq wars, it’s nearly impossible to prove a negative. This is what Oldham and now the Govt are faced with. An accusation , never mind if it flies in the face of logic or probability - only needs a lot of noise. Just like Iraq - the risible lies from the USA about ‘mobile nuclear bomb factories’ and the negative evidence from approx 2 years of Hans Blix travelling all over Iraq, presumably following up the best evidence the US secret service could provide - none of it counted. Why? Because only the oil counted? What is counting in the Oldham grooming story? It seems to be the lust for notoriety of one man - or maybe 2 now Musk has joined the party. Maybe as well, the new US administration is doing everything possible to ensure Americans are focussed away from their own internal problems - like the poverty and the poor to non-existent health care for millions of American citizens.
This is an impressive and important piece of a jigsaw. But the jigsaw is almost unknowable. We almost certainly will never know the full picture. Before diving into the politics, the "he said\she said" of this, we need to remind ourselves that they primary purpose of any of this is to protect the vulnerable. Their needs are paramount. We will never stop abuse, but we can stop it being easy or relatively risk-free. What Musk or Robinson thinks, or whether X or Y is a bad actor is almost irrelevant when compared to possible victims. As a solicitor having been involved in many corporate investigations (a few criminal), it is almost impossible to escape the conclusion that the only way to lance this boil is to have a full and open investigation a la the Horizon scandal. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant". Results of investigations are always tainted if they are not run independently of any participant. Having watched much of the PO inquiry, I have never heard anyone argue that it has sought to cover up what the Post Office or Fujitsu did. The argument against an inquiry seems to be that it will distract from implementing the Jay recommendations. Why? Jay was a statutory inquiry, and its recommendations can be implemented at any time. If a later enquiry produces different conclusions they can be implemented too. "Getting on with it" isn't really a good reason. I accept that whatever is said or found in an inquiry agitators will always allege a cover up (see the Warren report on JFK assasination). But the point isn't to stop or silence the tin foil hat brigade, it is to get to the best truth available and along the way persuade the average person (and cynically the average voter) that Musk and Robinson are not correct and should not be followed.
The sad and depressing thing Ross is that even if ‘the average voter’ is persuaded, a large and vocal cohort of the right and people who seem to get off on conspiracy theories and nonsense won’t be persuaded. And they are the irresponsible ones who make the most noise. It seems to me that ‘the best truth available’ has been found and reported on. We can’t keep going over the same ground to satisfy this distorted hope that there will be a different answer which is more to their taste.
All so depressing. Just keep on Joshi. We are listening x
All fair points. There is no right or wrong on an inquiry. I am just giving you my view that an inquiry will nail a lot of the "missing evidence" that worries the average UK person. As I wrote, I don't see any downside to an inquiry, whereas, at the moment, I see a lot of downside to letting this issue fester, and to let Musk\Robinson be seen as "heroes". Agreed that Joshi is doing a great job.
Excellent piece Joshi. My worry is the endless enquiries, and their limited scopes, and the complexity of them only feeds the story that this is a cover up being buried by bureaucrats. The politics of populism, by its nature, is a demand for easy answers to complicated questions, of which this is one depressing example.
Yeah, one person said to me: if they get a national inquiry, the people around Miah will denounce it as a cover up and will demand the UN gets involved. There's a huge amount of bad faith in this campaign, as well as some genuine demand for justice by survivors and others.
Indeed. The Barrow case (where Ellie Williams made multiple false accusations) demonstrates exactly this. There was a Channel 4 documentary this week. Even after her conviction, there are people who refuse to accept the verdict and still believe the men are guilty.
Sorry, I don't agree. The purpose of any inquiry would not be to shut Miah or Musk or Robinson up, but to get to the best truth available and to persuade anyone tempted to follow them that there is "nothing to see here". Pointy heads do what pointy heads do. Musk's global megaphone makes him dangerous, and a full and open inquiry a la Horizon almost certainly cannot be gainsaid.
Oh sure. Have an inquiry if that's what the democratic will is. I'm just saying that Miah will denounce it as another extension of the cover up because he simply does not have the evidence to support even a fraction of what he claims happened in Oldham.
And just to be clear, I don't advocate an inquiry because of public clamour. I want an inquiry to (a) get to as much of the truth as possible; and (ii) to persuade the UK voting population that Musk, Robinson, maybe Farage\Tice etc have the wrong end of the stick. If we followed public clamour, we'd be hanging people...
If you and Miah have a "he said\she said" now, you haven't really got anything to defeat him (apart from your journalistic integrity) as you are really pointing to an absence of evidence. After a full inquiry finding whatever it finds, his "it's all a cover up" looks weak. Of course he'll say that, and maybe Musk will too, but there will be a body of evidence, and an investigatory process, that they can be pointed to.
This is journalism at its best, whether local or otherwise.
Thanks very much Tony
That was a wonderful piece of journalism....picking a route amongst the vitriol. Inquiries by politicians should follow the evidence. It is not the role of inquiries to be secondary police forces.
Our problem is that there have been cover-ups in various parts of the country. That creates suspicion in a society where multiculturalism as a concept is looking rather ragged. There is a broader problem that the police are no longer trusted. The justice system is not now seen as blind. It is viewed as prejudicial.
These suspicions and views hack away at the very base of society and community.
Politicians of all flavours have taken the electorate down a dark road. The way back is not to reinforce suspicions with censorship or labelling of doubters...it is to ensure that the blindfold is restored to justice so that there can be no suspicion of one racial or religious group being treated more or less favourably than another. It is justice that is under assault. Politicians just want to keep their careers on track. In many electoral colleges that creates a conflict of interest.
A really insightful and thought-provoking piece about this complex issue, thank you
The other dynamic to appreciate is that the US has a long and storied history of, especially, right wing public figures jumping on highly emotional stories (generally involving rape, child abuse and exploitation , women - particularly allegations of abuse of white women by men of color) to obscure their own appalling misogyny. Let us not forget that Musk is an endorser of Andrew Tate and in the US has promoted profoundly misogynistic and degrading images of women. Part of the Trump 1 campaign involved the spread of assertions that Hilary Clinton was involved in a widespread child trafficking ring operating out of a Washington DC pizza parlor. This very nearly ended in tragedy when an outraged man stormed the pizza place with a shotgun, terrifying patrons and demanding to see the children they were holding there. There are Americans who still believe and continue to spread the outlandish story that those on the left are pedophiles and that there is merit to the Comet Pizza conspiracy. These people feed on spreading titillating stories that will spark extreme horror and outrage.
Agreed but we had this national self image that Britons were more intelligent than Americans and therefore above these conspiracy stories which is not the case. The power of the Internet to promote gossip which then turns into political discourse has also provided economic opportunities for some with begging bowls being proffered to fund "alternative facts". Musk foresaw the economic value of his platform in disrupting politics in other countries when he seemingly overpaid to buy Twitter.
As we’ve discovered, no western culture is now beyond the reach of social media poison (despite, overall, Brits actually being more intelligent than Americans).. As you say, Musk is above all else a schemer to enrich himself. Having become the richest man in the world he is now setting off to become the most powerful (while actually whining on his own platform when people criticize him). And now there are the hangers on who - with their “begging bowls - are hoping to catch a bit of the wealth and cache.
As always, the comments thread for a Mill piece comprises of rational, thoughtful contributions (and deserved praise for the quality of reporting).
The cause for despair is that the vanishingly small number of people who value sensible discourse, who set enough store by independent reporting to support The Mill, who are largely immune to online grifters and liars, who don't believe in populism...are almost entirely helpless in the face of big-tech, which is now more powerful than any nation state and is running faster and faster into a post-fact world.
We can't kid ourselves that our systems have ever been 'good' with careful consideration, rationality and being led by data and evidence. But we've now reached a point where all of those concepts have disappeared. Only the most money, the most extreme views (or inventions), and the largest megaphone matter.
I realise this commentary seems a little off-topic, but I don't believe it is; the world's richest man is driving the public narrative in a small, disadvantaged area of the north of England. That's terrifying. I wish I could feel more optimistic about human nature, but I really can't see anything other than increasingly dark days ahead for the whole world.
Good article, well researched and adding for me a new dimension to the current national/international coverage on the matter: one of the reasons I continue to subscribe to The Mill. It could do with a proof read though.
Thanks. It gone one, but admittedly it was at midnight... I'll try again.
As before the Iraq wars, it’s nearly impossible to prove a negative. This is what Oldham and now the Govt are faced with. An accusation , never mind if it flies in the face of logic or probability - only needs a lot of noise. Just like Iraq - the risible lies from the USA about ‘mobile nuclear bomb factories’ and the negative evidence from approx 2 years of Hans Blix travelling all over Iraq, presumably following up the best evidence the US secret service could provide - none of it counted. Why? Because only the oil counted? What is counting in the Oldham grooming story? It seems to be the lust for notoriety of one man - or maybe 2 now Musk has joined the party. Maybe as well, the new US administration is doing everything possible to ensure Americans are focussed away from their own internal problems - like the poverty and the poor to non-existent health care for millions of American citizens.
This is an impressive and important piece of a jigsaw. But the jigsaw is almost unknowable. We almost certainly will never know the full picture. Before diving into the politics, the "he said\she said" of this, we need to remind ourselves that they primary purpose of any of this is to protect the vulnerable. Their needs are paramount. We will never stop abuse, but we can stop it being easy or relatively risk-free. What Musk or Robinson thinks, or whether X or Y is a bad actor is almost irrelevant when compared to possible victims. As a solicitor having been involved in many corporate investigations (a few criminal), it is almost impossible to escape the conclusion that the only way to lance this boil is to have a full and open investigation a la the Horizon scandal. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant". Results of investigations are always tainted if they are not run independently of any participant. Having watched much of the PO inquiry, I have never heard anyone argue that it has sought to cover up what the Post Office or Fujitsu did. The argument against an inquiry seems to be that it will distract from implementing the Jay recommendations. Why? Jay was a statutory inquiry, and its recommendations can be implemented at any time. If a later enquiry produces different conclusions they can be implemented too. "Getting on with it" isn't really a good reason. I accept that whatever is said or found in an inquiry agitators will always allege a cover up (see the Warren report on JFK assasination). But the point isn't to stop or silence the tin foil hat brigade, it is to get to the best truth available and along the way persuade the average person (and cynically the average voter) that Musk and Robinson are not correct and should not be followed.
The sad and depressing thing Ross is that even if ‘the average voter’ is persuaded, a large and vocal cohort of the right and people who seem to get off on conspiracy theories and nonsense won’t be persuaded. And they are the irresponsible ones who make the most noise. It seems to me that ‘the best truth available’ has been found and reported on. We can’t keep going over the same ground to satisfy this distorted hope that there will be a different answer which is more to their taste.
All so depressing. Just keep on Joshi. We are listening x
All fair points. There is no right or wrong on an inquiry. I am just giving you my view that an inquiry will nail a lot of the "missing evidence" that worries the average UK person. As I wrote, I don't see any downside to an inquiry, whereas, at the moment, I see a lot of downside to letting this issue fester, and to let Musk\Robinson be seen as "heroes". Agreed that Joshi is doing a great job.