Dave Moutrey is about to start full time as Manchester’s Director of Culture after many years running HOME. And he has strong views about who art should be for
The problem with the arts not being accessible to the working classes is a perennial one. There is an additional problem in Manchester in that there are far too many gatekeepers and for all his words on ‘I actually do give a shit about the arts and culture’ and how much it matters to him, Dave is one of them. Promoting him to chief cultural gatekeeper will not solve that problem - it will only make it worse. If someone has been in the arts sector for decades and overseen much of the decline in accessibility nothing is going to change now unless something is done to break the stranglehold and throw the gates open to everyone. Banging on about having a working class background is not going to change that one bit. Nobody cares where you’re from. What they care about is what you have to contribute.
Nothing cultural happens in Manchester without the tacit acceptance of somebody in one of the inner circles. From Maxine Peake getting one of her mediocre plays put on at the Royal Exchange because she’s personal friends with the creative director to Sacha Lord’s exclusivity contracts with artists performing at his venues. If it’s not tedious ex punks endlessly ligging around the indie scene it’s the old Hacienda bores going on about how things were ‘back in the day’ and the constant river of tripe that passes for entirely risk free, conformist political activist theatre. You can’t even open a restaurant in Manchester without some boorish lout giving it his seal of approval. Even Burnham gets in on the act. Anybody remember his Artist of the Month scheme, where some hapless indie band would be hand picked by him and therefore virtually guaranteeing their obscurity? Tip for emerging artists: if a centrist politician desperately seeking kudos endorses you, you’re dead in the water. If the arts and culture in Manchester was any more incestuous social services would have to be called in.
Cornerhouse used to be somewhere people would just go to and hang out and things developed organically from there. When Cornerhouse shut its doors much of Manchester’s culture died. HOME didn’t even try to serve the Library Theatre audience and it’s not unreasonable to say that the ridiculous Soviet garden centre concrete statue of Engels (tell me again that culture in Manchester isn’t ‘astoundingly political’) serves as a useful tombstone to remind us of that. Culture in Manchester is as dead as his ideology.
MIF used to be something genuinely innovative but the last couple have brought nothing at all to the city and could have been held in any town or city in the Western world. In earlier years MIF brought us Kenneth Branagh in Macbeth - a truly world beating production, and theatre that featured Mikhail Baryshnikov and Willem Dafoe. The last MIF brought us fluffy toys with polka dots and the simultaneous opening of Aviva studios gave us an adaption of The Matrix, an overrated sci-fi B Movie which achieved cult status with internet nerds, virgins and rabbit-hole conspiracy theorists
Aviva has come in massively over budget and so far shown nothing of any real merit. People should be nervous about that and in this interview we are given no indication of what the future holds for the arts in Manchester and beyond. Sticking the name ‘Factory’ in front of of it was a tacit admission that Manchester is out of ideas. There’s only so many Hacienda throwbacks you can cram in and people are tired of it. Tony Wilson’s corpse should be left to rest in peace and we should maybe start looking to other cultural figures from the past for inspiration. You could get in a cab outside Aviva and five minutes later you’d be outside the address on the Duchy estate where Shelagh Delaney, a genuine working class hero, wrote A Taste of Honey. There may be another writer just like her on that very same estate but as things stand now she might as well be living in another country. There could be another Anthony Burgess somewhere in Harpurhey, another Howard Jacobson in Prestwich, a Jeanette Winterson in Accrington, a Caroline Aherne in Wythenshawe or a Lemn Sissay in Wigan. The fact is, we’ll probably never know and the great Mancunian twenty-first century work of literature or play or poem or BAFTA winning screenplay will sit on a hard drive forever because the opportunities just aren’t there any more.
Aviva has the opportunity to be something big and important and the ENO coming here should be a safe pair of hands which will bring people to its doors and give the impetus for others to snap out of their torpor and step up a bit. Otherwise, it will be nothing more than a huge white elephant. The sponsors will withdraw, nothing will be left in its place and we’ll be left with what Tony Wilson’s Factory was - a failed business model. How ironic.
In his interview, Dave says he’s trying to work out what the people of Manchester want. Well, why don’t you just ask. We’re right here you know.
To be fair to Aviva they are open to proposals so I’m going to put my money where my mouth is and submit something I’ve had an idea about for some time now. I think it would be absolutely perfect for both the venue and the city and in particular MIF. I’ll let you know how I get on.
Not just food for thought Robert but a whole buffet. Enjoyed reading your comment . My leanings are far more towards Shelagh Delaney and Walter Greenwood than anything that went on at The Hacienda ,oldie that I am . I'm interested to know how the Arts in Manchester will develop from here on.
I think Dave is a great person, and a great ambassador. I don't, however, agree that the middle class have colonised the arts - rather, I believe that the philistine position of successive governments and the lack of support for the arts has created the environment where the middle class are keeping the arts in existence. Either of these views does, of course, lead to the same bad outcome, but let's not blame the dedicated audiences and supporters for where we've ended up.
I appreciate I can speak only for myself, but: I would absolutely think of my younger self as working class (council house, more siblings than rooms, 3-generations in a terrace etc etc). I've been fortunate enough that, even at my chippiest, I couldn't argue that I'm not now middle class. I'm a member of or donator to most arts organisations in Manchester. I do not do that because I want to colonise them - I do it because I want to help ensure their continued existence, their outreach work, their role in education. I don't want influence, or productions solely for 'people like me' - I want to try to help, in some modest way, to keep all venues and companies accessible to everyone.
I've seen Dave at numerous events where he is surrounded by the middle class people that make the donations, buy the memberships, support the discounted tickets for schools and the low paid/unwaged. It's critical that everyone gets to come through the door of HOME, and the Bridgewater, and Hope Mill, and The Lowry, and Aviva Studio...let's just be careful about who we blame for how difficult it is to achieve that.
I worked as a volunteer, as did all the other staff, for the Manchester Youth Theatre in the 1970s and 80’s. This provided a theatre experience, based on the model of the National Youth Theatre, for a whole range of young people across the social spectrum. It was a fantastic experience for them. Most didn’t go on to work in theatre but I’m pretty sure it engendered a love of it. One or two did go on to become well known actors or take other roles in theatre. Youth Theatres became less important as drama in schools increased but now drama is not seen as important in the curriculum by the current government.
The young people performed at least one Shakespeare play, often at The Library Theatre or the Forum. They rehearsed in Hulme.
I suppose these days teachers wouldn’t be able to do this ( too exhausted) or be given 2 weeks off at the start of the school year for the shows but the venues mentioned in the article could be used and funding explored? There might even be Youth Theatre Alumni such as David Threlfall and Leslie Sharp who would give some time? There could be drama students at the Universities who would like to gain experience in directing?
Interest in theatre and other arts needs to be engendered when people are young.
Costs are of course another issue. Tickets are so expensive but I was pleased to be able to take my grandson to Aviva Studios show at half price.
I went to the Library Theatre a lot but have never been to Home. Nothing to do with needing to dumb down just that the shows at first did not appeal to people who had supported the Library Theatre. Too Avantgarde and too aimed at students?
I was proud to direct for Manchester Youth Theatre in the early 90's, a musical by Mike Harding, performed at Wythenshawe Forum. Sitting in Geoff and Hazel's house casting the show and deciding where the after show party would be brings a smile to my face. You are right, it gave youngsters a chance and a training and it was for all comers too; and affordable. I wonder if something similar could be re-born?
Dave Moutrey is an honourable man who speaks his mind in a soft North East accent. He’s an asset to Manchester, and one that doesn’t wrap itself in layers of self-promotion masquerading as the general good. He is not smug. He’s not constantly waving semaphoric value-signals.
Dave Moutrey is more Abraham Moss than Soho House, more Zion Arts than Serpentine pavilion. He has not skipped from board to trustee board, to posh dinner to White Cube opening, on his way to his OBE. He’s always been more HOME than Royal Academy. I heartily disagreed with him about the Cornerhouse move from Oxford Road to Tony Wilson place. I was entirely wrong, he was completely right. I admire him and sincerely hope that in his new full time roll as Manchester’s Director of Culture he is able to continue to bridge gaps in arts access, equalise funding, and lower the stuck-up noses of some of the people who have, largely by the efforts of others, cornered media interest.
Great things have happened in this city for decades, centuries even. Our cultural life did not begin with a festival in 2007. Nor with a night club in 1982. Nor did it all kick off in the Lesser Free Trade Hall in 1976. Account must be made of (amongst others) the Bernstein’s choice of Manchester for Granada in 1956, of John Barbirolli’s rebuilding of the Hallé after the war, and of the Library Theatre itself. Dave Moutrey knows these things, and Dave Moutrey has talents and virtues lacking in many of his arts peers. He is an honourable man.
Despite cutbacks and general underfunding in the arts nationally I think this is great that Manchester is going to have a full time Director of Culture - and personally I believe the ENO move to Manchester has such a lot of possibilities - particularly developing collaborative projects with Manchester schools. As a head of music in the mid 80s in Manchester we had an amazing project with Glyndbourne with singers and a young director Stephen Medcalfe undertaking a summer term residency at the school working with year 9 students on 'Katya Kabanova'. We also worked on projects with Granada TV and the Manchester Music Service. I'm now back in Manchester teaching music and drama at a girls school and absolutely believe passionately that if we want to develop future audiences schools, Manchester arts organisations and the tertiary sector such as RNCM and Salford and Manchester Universities need to work collaboratively on different scales of projects.
As a child of the 80s, growing up in New Moston, (with very little access to theatre or live music), my first experience of the arts came via my primary school, with opportunities to learn the violin and perform contemporary dance and movement. We were taught during the school day and had the chance to take part in concerts and productions at venues including RNCM, Trinity High School in the (very far away and exotic) south Manchester, and at some of the smaller theatres and venues
in and around the city. Our school was a little rough round the edges, and the kids were mainly from council estates, and two up two down terraced houses in the north Manchester locality, many with parents who had never been to the theatre. I remember feeling so ‘special’ and excited by the prospect of performing live and in front of an audience, being given a special tie to wear for something called the Manchester Junior Showcase, prancing about in a floaty costume as ‘Jupiter’ in the Zodiac of Angels, accompanied by a live orchestra, and really believing I could become a musician or a dancer or just something creative in my future life. That spark of interest and enthusiasm, the joy it brought and the feeling of ‘I’m part of this exciting new world’ was, and remains, so important to kids from all backgrounds and cultures. Giving them the power and motivation to learn and feel the joy that the arts bring and to
understand they have permission to expresss and create. I really hope Dave can see the value in pushing all forms of creativity into the education system across GM, really nurturing and encouraging these young people. Covid has taken so much away in terms of social and cultural experiences for this generation of children and young people and he has a real opportunity to help remedy that, through the gift of arts education and development. Good luck Dave, do them proud!
(Footnote: I did not become a musician nor a dancer, however I still very much enjoy all aspects of the arts, as well as giving back in my role as director for Oldham Theatre Workshop Friends!)
Like you Louise, my school was a little rough round the edges and I had my first experience of the classical music at junior school in Bury. A group of actor musicians came to school and we had to react to Hall of the Mountain King from The Peer Gynt suite by Grieg. I loved the sound but had no idea how it was possibly made and it wasn't for the likes of us to speculate - unless you had a parent who knew classical music. We all ran around the hall and danced and twirled as goblins, sprites and all manner of things, it was glorious, I can still remember feeling free and uplifted by it. I knew I wanted to dive into that sound world. It wasn't until i was 32 and teaching dance at the RNCM that I joined 'that world', and really saw and understood just 'how' it was made. Now I direct opera all over the world and create community operas to encourage kids like us to run around as Jupiter or goblins or to translate their own stories into experiences that will influence their lives. As long as children have the opportunity to experience it and can make their own assumptions of what it is and then choose to go to it or not, that is the job Dave and others have, as you say, to motivate them to feel the joy that the arts bring - irrespective of background or culture. We owe it to our children and every generation (old people who are isolated and miss live orchestra or concerts of their youth especially) to fire their imagination with live theatre, dance, music and drama in schools and the community so that we are not going down the AI - technology computer interactive route constantly. I go into schools still and see the results of too much computer based work - ie: the kids are unsure of how to play make believe and use their own imagination it they are not clicking on a button and seeing something on the screen. Brilliant that you are connected to OTWF, that we have lost the Coli is the biggest tragedy - but we are still fighting for it!
If the middle classes have 'colonised' the arts, it must be due to them having the time, energy and money to devote to them. Education is also a factor. I was introduced to classical music at primary school when a recording of Chopin's Military Polonaise was played as we all marched into morning assembly. Later on I attended grammar school where my musical education was extended via 2 music teachers for a school of around 800 pupils. You wouldn't get that ratio today in a state school as 13 years of austerity have resulted in drastic cutbacks to musical education.
Just before Christmas I attended a concert at the Bridgewater Hall where the Halle Orchestra performed music composed by the techno DJ and producer, Jeff Mills - with Jeff Mills present in person and playing the drum machine alongside the orchestra. It attracted an audience of all ages ranging from me aged 70 to young people. It was a fab performance with a great atmosphere. I hope that the arrival of ENO will see similar creative ways of raising the profile of opera.
In my view, the last time we saw truly diverse audiences and large scale public involvement in the arts was twenty years ago with the Streets Ahead festivals. These were staged each summer across Greater Manchester by a tiny team at Manchester International Arts and with a small budget compared to today’s excesses. They were mostly outdoor and mostly free but they brought us spectacular sights from across Europe. They attracted enormous audiences and also involved lots of local people - parades were to take part in, not to just watch and at one event 1000 salsa drummers from across Greater Manchester performed in Castlefield Bowl! Dave Moutrey will remember these amazing times and likely have participated in some of these events. Let’s hope we can bring back some of this true spirit and ethos of arts for everyone.
I remember Ann Tucker and Jeremy Shine forging ahead with this festival and creating a truly vibrant city. I was blown away by performances at Castlefield - long before the flats were there, now negating many productions. Health and Safety ramifications have changed since then, I know from running my own company Feelgood Theatre Productions for 30 years this year and also doing outdoor theatre that some of those spectacular shows would not be possible now. There were also many more spaces to use for performances, now sadly much is renovated into flats or has skyscrapers built on it. Many outdoor and large scale shows are now quite expensive or have been commercialised into 'immersive' experiences. We have to look forward, but Ann and Jeremey did lead the way.
Well, that is a well spiced read Robert Pegg, & whilst I’m not sure Jacobson or Winterson would be happy to meet their successors quite yet, I am never anything but delighted to hear Shelagh Delaney invoked. The number, relative diversity and length of these comments might, with any luck, persuade Joshi Herrmann (for it is he who needs persuading) that a great deal more coverage of arts & culture, will likely bring complementary numbers of subscribers to his Mill.
Opera was performed in Hulme in the early 1900s at the Playhouse theatre (currently tenanted by Niamos). There were plays in French in Hulme Hippodrome next door.
This is interesting. I do think money has a lot to do with the arts being colonised by the middle class.
I grew up in The Bronx to a lower middle class immigrant family in the 60s, when a 15 cent subway token could take you to all sorts of theatre at less than the cost of a pint. The NY Shakespeare Festival had free outdoor shows in Central Park all summer, where as a teenager I saw James Earl Jones playing Macbeth, in what must have been one of the first examples of colour blind casting. They also toured the boroughs, setting up Shakespeare plays in parks in working class neighbourhoods. If you wanted to see any kind of show on Broadway, you could get a ticket in the upper circle for $5, so a wider range of people had access to theatre . It would be fantastic to have something like that here in Greater Manchester, although who would fund it?
My feeling is that since the Library Theatre closed, and now with the loss of Oldham Coliseum, there is a lack of a certain kind of naturalistic play that isn't dumbed down but that is accessible. Those were the staples of the Library Theatre, which was an intimate venue that did a brilliant job on a shoestring. I have seen some excellent theatre at HOME and at the Royal Exchange but particularly at Manchester International Festival I feel that it's too avant-garde for the likes of me. Maybe it's my age, but some years I can't find anything that appeals to me in its programme.
I saw Hamilton last week, where there was an incredibly enthusiastic full house of a wide range of people of all ages. Hamilton is challenging in that it's about figures in American history that few British people know anything about, and it's essentially an opera, albeit in hip hop. But if it's entertaining...and Hamilton is a phenomenon that has had huge buzz so there aren't many other productions like that...people will spend the money and come.
My children, now adults, were lucky when they attended state schools in Stockport and had free music tuition and loan of instruments as well as opportunities to act in plays (usually musicals and one Gilbert and Sullivan operetta) when they were at the local comprehensive. I don't think this is available to state school pupils now.
"I have seen some excellent theatre at HOME and at the Royal Exchange but particularly at Manchester International Festival I feel that it's too avant-garde for the likes of me. Maybe it's my age..." It's not your age Fran. I'm 35 and I feel the same. I find quite a lot of what's on in Manchester pretty unappealing, if I can even work out what it is.
Really interesting points Fran. I founded and have run Feelgood Theatre Productions for 30 years and we did exciting outdoor productions all over the region and then predominantly in Heaton Park. Great accessible shows, Shakespeare, new commissions and great classics too. We used experienced professionals and offered new graduates debut performances and also internships and young people joining us for ensemble roles. As a non building based org the constant funding issue and lack of support from any building based orgs means it is so difficult to sustain and the larger organisations drain pots of sponsorship. We also offered workshops for children and families. We were once accused of being 'too family friendly' and not edgy enough - despite winning 3 Manchester Eve News Awards, performing in the West End, Europe and Africa. Our rep was similar to the Library and I feel that in Manchester now there is a gap in the repertoire offering - we cannot turn the clock back sadly - Annie Horniman the founder would be heartbroken at the demise of Repertory Theatre - but I hope Dave can look at the offering is schools and across the city to balance the more modern / avant-garde offering. I hope also that ENO can and will look to offering a hybrid of work with new pieces that are relevant to everyone and not just 'developing new audiences'... I would like to see the audience already out there inspired and encouraged to try opera - (as you say Hamilton my have mics but it is essentially a modern operetta) - not on a grand large scale necessarily but new work written and developed from local stories with professionals and the community. I am excited, and always remain hopeful that we can change the ebb of the tide.
This is a good point about non building based organisations. When I started out writing there were a few around who would put on scratch nights. All good training for the discipline of writing short pieces to a deadline. Doesn’t seem to be so many now or maybe I’m just out of the loop. Think one of the problems was finding space to rehearse and perform. Another area where perhaps Aviva could step in. Free rehearsal and workshop space would be a massive boon to struggling writers and performers.
I bought a ticket to Hamilton at the Palace on the day for £38, i.e. about 2 hours work at an average wage or 3 1/2 hours at minimum wage.
What was the average hourly wage in 1960s New York? The US minimum wage at the end of the sixties was $1.40, so pretty much the same ratio for that $5 ticket.
Besides, Manchester is not New York, and in London in summer you can still go to the opera or ballet (Royal Opera House, not ENO) the Proms or to Shakespeares Globe for less than a tenner
Mention is made in one of the comments about Hamilton. Is Hamilton part of the Arts?
The performances, as many at the Palace and Opera House, are full every night, at seat prices much higher than many arts venues, with many people who, I'm guessing, wouldn't call themselves middle class.
Yep, great point. Hamilton is certainly the Arts and in fact Dave Moutrey mentioned the popularity of Hamilton in our chat. I should have included that. I think you're right to point out that these more commercial venues are doing very well.
'Our cultural life (in Manchester) did not begin with a festival in 2007, nor with a nightclub in 1982' ...how right you are Phil.
I loved the Library Theatre and The Free Trade Hall in the 60s and early 70s. We didn't have huge venues to hear and experience contemporary music then though, we had to make do with cinemas putting on pop acts or 'gigs' as they're referred to now if they weren't playing the FTH. A more intimate affair and definitely a deeper connection was forged with the artist, I feel.
! manchesters parochial audience? i dont think so. if all else fails blame the people
2 the transition from the library theater to home has been a real tragedy for theater ; they did plays which had resonance with a wide audience .
3 if you take 50% of the young people out of their home environment to go to university elsewhere its unsurprising that the remainder have a limited appreciation of a culture which is not part of their everyday experience. The experience of the grandfather is totally irrelevant( i write as someone who can also quote in aid working class grand and parents but choose not to).
4 on a financial note why should an art form which is enjoyed by a very small group of people ( opera) receive public subsidy at the level it does when other forms of cultural experience( football) get nothing?
Hi Steve, really interesting to read your comments, I too miss the Library. On point 4, I am a working class kid who now directs opera - and I can honestly say that it is not the elite art form most people think. Yes, there is the Glyndebourne (no subsidy) and ROH (lots of subsidy) but there are also great companies like Opera North and Welsh National whose work in the community really does change lives, I know because I have led many community opera and a main stage production that has filled the Millenium Centre with ordinary working class people. I wasn't exposed to it until I was 32; as a working class farmers daughter from Bury that kind of thing was 'not for the likes of me'... but I hope that one day we will have a new opera in Manchester with Manchester stories and that we will have Manchester enjoying acoustic singing and music playing that really does uplift and inspire. This has been my experience and I have seen it transform communities and uplift people to university because of it. I hope ENO will employ our talented musicians and singers that choose to live in the NW but always have to travel after training at the RNCM. We will see.
This is exactly the kind of thing we should be singing from the rooftops (pun intended). Like you, I wasn’t exposed to the theatre until I was in my thirties. The third time I visited the theatre I was in my fifties and it was to see something I’d written myself being performed at the Contact. I would absolutely support anybody getting involved in opera or theatre at whatever age they come to it.
Very little opera in Manchester, quite a strong classical music culture in the city though not on the scale of football of course.
Manchester council did 'pump prime' football's recovery in Manchester proper with the building of the City of Manchester Stadium...
And the Lottery also supports grassroots football and football clubs outreach programs quite generously (making the owners of the big clubs look generous, sometimes mostly with other people's money...).
A question for David Moutrey he might be able to answer in these comments: does his newly expanded roll as MCC’s full time Director of Culture include in his remit Factory International and MIF?
I believe Dave is a Mill member but he may have found the essay-length (and excellent) comments in this discussion intimidating and decided not to take part. My understanding is that HOME has got the same contractual arrangements with the city council as Aviva Studios. Ie, in both, the city council don't get involved in artistic arrangements. The council sets the business framework - and then Factory International delivers that. It's something like a service level agreement. Once he's up and running in the role full time we should ask for more detail on that.
I can only speak for HOME, but this sums up the arrangement well. It is an SLA with HOME contracted to deliver a certain number of performances/exhibitions, be open a certain number of days etc. Incidentally, this contractual arrangement really helps with VAT recovery which is a massive deal for cultural institutions who often have to incur most of the VAT on costs.
as a counterbalance you should have interviewed Gina Frost and John Topliff who ran Three Minute Theatre on Oldham Street for a decade on less than shoestring and little or no public money. Yet they produced great work and reached audiences that probably never went near Home, MIF etc ...This article by Bernadette Hyland in the Morning Star in 2015 is still very relevant " A Tale of Two Tents" https://web.archive.org/web/20150815070913/https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-9220-A-tale-of-two-tents#.Vc7lo3bP32d
The problem with the arts not being accessible to the working classes is a perennial one. There is an additional problem in Manchester in that there are far too many gatekeepers and for all his words on ‘I actually do give a shit about the arts and culture’ and how much it matters to him, Dave is one of them. Promoting him to chief cultural gatekeeper will not solve that problem - it will only make it worse. If someone has been in the arts sector for decades and overseen much of the decline in accessibility nothing is going to change now unless something is done to break the stranglehold and throw the gates open to everyone. Banging on about having a working class background is not going to change that one bit. Nobody cares where you’re from. What they care about is what you have to contribute.
Nothing cultural happens in Manchester without the tacit acceptance of somebody in one of the inner circles. From Maxine Peake getting one of her mediocre plays put on at the Royal Exchange because she’s personal friends with the creative director to Sacha Lord’s exclusivity contracts with artists performing at his venues. If it’s not tedious ex punks endlessly ligging around the indie scene it’s the old Hacienda bores going on about how things were ‘back in the day’ and the constant river of tripe that passes for entirely risk free, conformist political activist theatre. You can’t even open a restaurant in Manchester without some boorish lout giving it his seal of approval. Even Burnham gets in on the act. Anybody remember his Artist of the Month scheme, where some hapless indie band would be hand picked by him and therefore virtually guaranteeing their obscurity? Tip for emerging artists: if a centrist politician desperately seeking kudos endorses you, you’re dead in the water. If the arts and culture in Manchester was any more incestuous social services would have to be called in.
Cornerhouse used to be somewhere people would just go to and hang out and things developed organically from there. When Cornerhouse shut its doors much of Manchester’s culture died. HOME didn’t even try to serve the Library Theatre audience and it’s not unreasonable to say that the ridiculous Soviet garden centre concrete statue of Engels (tell me again that culture in Manchester isn’t ‘astoundingly political’) serves as a useful tombstone to remind us of that. Culture in Manchester is as dead as his ideology.
MIF used to be something genuinely innovative but the last couple have brought nothing at all to the city and could have been held in any town or city in the Western world. In earlier years MIF brought us Kenneth Branagh in Macbeth - a truly world beating production, and theatre that featured Mikhail Baryshnikov and Willem Dafoe. The last MIF brought us fluffy toys with polka dots and the simultaneous opening of Aviva studios gave us an adaption of The Matrix, an overrated sci-fi B Movie which achieved cult status with internet nerds, virgins and rabbit-hole conspiracy theorists
Aviva has come in massively over budget and so far shown nothing of any real merit. People should be nervous about that and in this interview we are given no indication of what the future holds for the arts in Manchester and beyond. Sticking the name ‘Factory’ in front of of it was a tacit admission that Manchester is out of ideas. There’s only so many Hacienda throwbacks you can cram in and people are tired of it. Tony Wilson’s corpse should be left to rest in peace and we should maybe start looking to other cultural figures from the past for inspiration. You could get in a cab outside Aviva and five minutes later you’d be outside the address on the Duchy estate where Shelagh Delaney, a genuine working class hero, wrote A Taste of Honey. There may be another writer just like her on that very same estate but as things stand now she might as well be living in another country. There could be another Anthony Burgess somewhere in Harpurhey, another Howard Jacobson in Prestwich, a Jeanette Winterson in Accrington, a Caroline Aherne in Wythenshawe or a Lemn Sissay in Wigan. The fact is, we’ll probably never know and the great Mancunian twenty-first century work of literature or play or poem or BAFTA winning screenplay will sit on a hard drive forever because the opportunities just aren’t there any more.
Aviva has the opportunity to be something big and important and the ENO coming here should be a safe pair of hands which will bring people to its doors and give the impetus for others to snap out of their torpor and step up a bit. Otherwise, it will be nothing more than a huge white elephant. The sponsors will withdraw, nothing will be left in its place and we’ll be left with what Tony Wilson’s Factory was - a failed business model. How ironic.
In his interview, Dave says he’s trying to work out what the people of Manchester want. Well, why don’t you just ask. We’re right here you know.
"If the arts and culture in Manchester was any more incestuous social services would have to be called in." Yikes.
To be fair to Aviva they are open to proposals so I’m going to put my money where my mouth is and submit something I’ve had an idea about for some time now. I think it would be absolutely perfect for both the venue and the city and in particular MIF. I’ll let you know how I get on.
Drop me a line Robert, I have a few ideas too, maybe we are on the same page?
Please do.
Not just food for thought Robert but a whole buffet. Enjoyed reading your comment . My leanings are far more towards Shelagh Delaney and Walter Greenwood than anything that went on at The Hacienda ,oldie that I am . I'm interested to know how the Arts in Manchester will develop from here on.
I think Dave is a great person, and a great ambassador. I don't, however, agree that the middle class have colonised the arts - rather, I believe that the philistine position of successive governments and the lack of support for the arts has created the environment where the middle class are keeping the arts in existence. Either of these views does, of course, lead to the same bad outcome, but let's not blame the dedicated audiences and supporters for where we've ended up.
I appreciate I can speak only for myself, but: I would absolutely think of my younger self as working class (council house, more siblings than rooms, 3-generations in a terrace etc etc). I've been fortunate enough that, even at my chippiest, I couldn't argue that I'm not now middle class. I'm a member of or donator to most arts organisations in Manchester. I do not do that because I want to colonise them - I do it because I want to help ensure their continued existence, their outreach work, their role in education. I don't want influence, or productions solely for 'people like me' - I want to try to help, in some modest way, to keep all venues and companies accessible to everyone.
I've seen Dave at numerous events where he is surrounded by the middle class people that make the donations, buy the memberships, support the discounted tickets for schools and the low paid/unwaged. It's critical that everyone gets to come through the door of HOME, and the Bridgewater, and Hope Mill, and The Lowry, and Aviva Studio...let's just be careful about who we blame for how difficult it is to achieve that.
I worked as a volunteer, as did all the other staff, for the Manchester Youth Theatre in the 1970s and 80’s. This provided a theatre experience, based on the model of the National Youth Theatre, for a whole range of young people across the social spectrum. It was a fantastic experience for them. Most didn’t go on to work in theatre but I’m pretty sure it engendered a love of it. One or two did go on to become well known actors or take other roles in theatre. Youth Theatres became less important as drama in schools increased but now drama is not seen as important in the curriculum by the current government.
The young people performed at least one Shakespeare play, often at The Library Theatre or the Forum. They rehearsed in Hulme.
I suppose these days teachers wouldn’t be able to do this ( too exhausted) or be given 2 weeks off at the start of the school year for the shows but the venues mentioned in the article could be used and funding explored? There might even be Youth Theatre Alumni such as David Threlfall and Leslie Sharp who would give some time? There could be drama students at the Universities who would like to gain experience in directing?
Interest in theatre and other arts needs to be engendered when people are young.
Costs are of course another issue. Tickets are so expensive but I was pleased to be able to take my grandson to Aviva Studios show at half price.
I went to the Library Theatre a lot but have never been to Home. Nothing to do with needing to dumb down just that the shows at first did not appeal to people who had supported the Library Theatre. Too Avantgarde and too aimed at students?
Students in full time education can get £5.50 Halle tickets - first come first served.
I was proud to direct for Manchester Youth Theatre in the early 90's, a musical by Mike Harding, performed at Wythenshawe Forum. Sitting in Geoff and Hazel's house casting the show and deciding where the after show party would be brings a smile to my face. You are right, it gave youngsters a chance and a training and it was for all comers too; and affordable. I wonder if something similar could be re-born?
Really interesting comment, thanks Moira.
Dave Moutrey is an honourable man who speaks his mind in a soft North East accent. He’s an asset to Manchester, and one that doesn’t wrap itself in layers of self-promotion masquerading as the general good. He is not smug. He’s not constantly waving semaphoric value-signals.
Dave Moutrey is more Abraham Moss than Soho House, more Zion Arts than Serpentine pavilion. He has not skipped from board to trustee board, to posh dinner to White Cube opening, on his way to his OBE. He’s always been more HOME than Royal Academy. I heartily disagreed with him about the Cornerhouse move from Oxford Road to Tony Wilson place. I was entirely wrong, he was completely right. I admire him and sincerely hope that in his new full time roll as Manchester’s Director of Culture he is able to continue to bridge gaps in arts access, equalise funding, and lower the stuck-up noses of some of the people who have, largely by the efforts of others, cornered media interest.
Great things have happened in this city for decades, centuries even. Our cultural life did not begin with a festival in 2007. Nor with a night club in 1982. Nor did it all kick off in the Lesser Free Trade Hall in 1976. Account must be made of (amongst others) the Bernstein’s choice of Manchester for Granada in 1956, of John Barbirolli’s rebuilding of the Hallé after the war, and of the Library Theatre itself. Dave Moutrey knows these things, and Dave Moutrey has talents and virtues lacking in many of his arts peers. He is an honourable man.
Despite cutbacks and general underfunding in the arts nationally I think this is great that Manchester is going to have a full time Director of Culture - and personally I believe the ENO move to Manchester has such a lot of possibilities - particularly developing collaborative projects with Manchester schools. As a head of music in the mid 80s in Manchester we had an amazing project with Glyndbourne with singers and a young director Stephen Medcalfe undertaking a summer term residency at the school working with year 9 students on 'Katya Kabanova'. We also worked on projects with Granada TV and the Manchester Music Service. I'm now back in Manchester teaching music and drama at a girls school and absolutely believe passionately that if we want to develop future audiences schools, Manchester arts organisations and the tertiary sector such as RNCM and Salford and Manchester Universities need to work collaboratively on different scales of projects.
As a child of the 80s, growing up in New Moston, (with very little access to theatre or live music), my first experience of the arts came via my primary school, with opportunities to learn the violin and perform contemporary dance and movement. We were taught during the school day and had the chance to take part in concerts and productions at venues including RNCM, Trinity High School in the (very far away and exotic) south Manchester, and at some of the smaller theatres and venues
in and around the city. Our school was a little rough round the edges, and the kids were mainly from council estates, and two up two down terraced houses in the north Manchester locality, many with parents who had never been to the theatre. I remember feeling so ‘special’ and excited by the prospect of performing live and in front of an audience, being given a special tie to wear for something called the Manchester Junior Showcase, prancing about in a floaty costume as ‘Jupiter’ in the Zodiac of Angels, accompanied by a live orchestra, and really believing I could become a musician or a dancer or just something creative in my future life. That spark of interest and enthusiasm, the joy it brought and the feeling of ‘I’m part of this exciting new world’ was, and remains, so important to kids from all backgrounds and cultures. Giving them the power and motivation to learn and feel the joy that the arts bring and to
understand they have permission to expresss and create. I really hope Dave can see the value in pushing all forms of creativity into the education system across GM, really nurturing and encouraging these young people. Covid has taken so much away in terms of social and cultural experiences for this generation of children and young people and he has a real opportunity to help remedy that, through the gift of arts education and development. Good luck Dave, do them proud!
(Footnote: I did not become a musician nor a dancer, however I still very much enjoy all aspects of the arts, as well as giving back in my role as director for Oldham Theatre Workshop Friends!)
Like you Louise, my school was a little rough round the edges and I had my first experience of the classical music at junior school in Bury. A group of actor musicians came to school and we had to react to Hall of the Mountain King from The Peer Gynt suite by Grieg. I loved the sound but had no idea how it was possibly made and it wasn't for the likes of us to speculate - unless you had a parent who knew classical music. We all ran around the hall and danced and twirled as goblins, sprites and all manner of things, it was glorious, I can still remember feeling free and uplifted by it. I knew I wanted to dive into that sound world. It wasn't until i was 32 and teaching dance at the RNCM that I joined 'that world', and really saw and understood just 'how' it was made. Now I direct opera all over the world and create community operas to encourage kids like us to run around as Jupiter or goblins or to translate their own stories into experiences that will influence their lives. As long as children have the opportunity to experience it and can make their own assumptions of what it is and then choose to go to it or not, that is the job Dave and others have, as you say, to motivate them to feel the joy that the arts bring - irrespective of background or culture. We owe it to our children and every generation (old people who are isolated and miss live orchestra or concerts of their youth especially) to fire their imagination with live theatre, dance, music and drama in schools and the community so that we are not going down the AI - technology computer interactive route constantly. I go into schools still and see the results of too much computer based work - ie: the kids are unsure of how to play make believe and use their own imagination it they are not clicking on a button and seeing something on the screen. Brilliant that you are connected to OTWF, that we have lost the Coli is the biggest tragedy - but we are still fighting for it!
If the middle classes have 'colonised' the arts, it must be due to them having the time, energy and money to devote to them. Education is also a factor. I was introduced to classical music at primary school when a recording of Chopin's Military Polonaise was played as we all marched into morning assembly. Later on I attended grammar school where my musical education was extended via 2 music teachers for a school of around 800 pupils. You wouldn't get that ratio today in a state school as 13 years of austerity have resulted in drastic cutbacks to musical education.
Just before Christmas I attended a concert at the Bridgewater Hall where the Halle Orchestra performed music composed by the techno DJ and producer, Jeff Mills - with Jeff Mills present in person and playing the drum machine alongside the orchestra. It attracted an audience of all ages ranging from me aged 70 to young people. It was a fab performance with a great atmosphere. I hope that the arrival of ENO will see similar creative ways of raising the profile of opera.
In my view, the last time we saw truly diverse audiences and large scale public involvement in the arts was twenty years ago with the Streets Ahead festivals. These were staged each summer across Greater Manchester by a tiny team at Manchester International Arts and with a small budget compared to today’s excesses. They were mostly outdoor and mostly free but they brought us spectacular sights from across Europe. They attracted enormous audiences and also involved lots of local people - parades were to take part in, not to just watch and at one event 1000 salsa drummers from across Greater Manchester performed in Castlefield Bowl! Dave Moutrey will remember these amazing times and likely have participated in some of these events. Let’s hope we can bring back some of this true spirit and ethos of arts for everyone.
I remember Ann Tucker and Jeremy Shine forging ahead with this festival and creating a truly vibrant city. I was blown away by performances at Castlefield - long before the flats were there, now negating many productions. Health and Safety ramifications have changed since then, I know from running my own company Feelgood Theatre Productions for 30 years this year and also doing outdoor theatre that some of those spectacular shows would not be possible now. There were also many more spaces to use for performances, now sadly much is renovated into flats or has skyscrapers built on it. Many outdoor and large scale shows are now quite expensive or have been commercialised into 'immersive' experiences. We have to look forward, but Ann and Jeremey did lead the way.
Don’t forget the superb EuroCultured festivals. They brought something very special to the city for a couple of days
These festivals sound excellent
Well, that is a well spiced read Robert Pegg, & whilst I’m not sure Jacobson or Winterson would be happy to meet their successors quite yet, I am never anything but delighted to hear Shelagh Delaney invoked. The number, relative diversity and length of these comments might, with any luck, persuade Joshi Herrmann (for it is he who needs persuading) that a great deal more coverage of arts & culture, will likely bring complementary numbers of subscribers to his Mill.
Sophie tries to persuade me of this every time she comes in. I'd love a Delaney piece off someone...
Opera was performed in Hulme in the early 1900s at the Playhouse theatre (currently tenanted by Niamos). There were plays in French in Hulme Hippodrome next door.
Good info, thanks.
This is interesting. I do think money has a lot to do with the arts being colonised by the middle class.
I grew up in The Bronx to a lower middle class immigrant family in the 60s, when a 15 cent subway token could take you to all sorts of theatre at less than the cost of a pint. The NY Shakespeare Festival had free outdoor shows in Central Park all summer, where as a teenager I saw James Earl Jones playing Macbeth, in what must have been one of the first examples of colour blind casting. They also toured the boroughs, setting up Shakespeare plays in parks in working class neighbourhoods. If you wanted to see any kind of show on Broadway, you could get a ticket in the upper circle for $5, so a wider range of people had access to theatre . It would be fantastic to have something like that here in Greater Manchester, although who would fund it?
My feeling is that since the Library Theatre closed, and now with the loss of Oldham Coliseum, there is a lack of a certain kind of naturalistic play that isn't dumbed down but that is accessible. Those were the staples of the Library Theatre, which was an intimate venue that did a brilliant job on a shoestring. I have seen some excellent theatre at HOME and at the Royal Exchange but particularly at Manchester International Festival I feel that it's too avant-garde for the likes of me. Maybe it's my age, but some years I can't find anything that appeals to me in its programme.
I saw Hamilton last week, where there was an incredibly enthusiastic full house of a wide range of people of all ages. Hamilton is challenging in that it's about figures in American history that few British people know anything about, and it's essentially an opera, albeit in hip hop. But if it's entertaining...and Hamilton is a phenomenon that has had huge buzz so there aren't many other productions like that...people will spend the money and come.
My children, now adults, were lucky when they attended state schools in Stockport and had free music tuition and loan of instruments as well as opportunities to act in plays (usually musicals and one Gilbert and Sullivan operetta) when they were at the local comprehensive. I don't think this is available to state school pupils now.
"I have seen some excellent theatre at HOME and at the Royal Exchange but particularly at Manchester International Festival I feel that it's too avant-garde for the likes of me. Maybe it's my age..." It's not your age Fran. I'm 35 and I feel the same. I find quite a lot of what's on in Manchester pretty unappealing, if I can even work out what it is.
Really interesting points Fran. I founded and have run Feelgood Theatre Productions for 30 years and we did exciting outdoor productions all over the region and then predominantly in Heaton Park. Great accessible shows, Shakespeare, new commissions and great classics too. We used experienced professionals and offered new graduates debut performances and also internships and young people joining us for ensemble roles. As a non building based org the constant funding issue and lack of support from any building based orgs means it is so difficult to sustain and the larger organisations drain pots of sponsorship. We also offered workshops for children and families. We were once accused of being 'too family friendly' and not edgy enough - despite winning 3 Manchester Eve News Awards, performing in the West End, Europe and Africa. Our rep was similar to the Library and I feel that in Manchester now there is a gap in the repertoire offering - we cannot turn the clock back sadly - Annie Horniman the founder would be heartbroken at the demise of Repertory Theatre - but I hope Dave can look at the offering is schools and across the city to balance the more modern / avant-garde offering. I hope also that ENO can and will look to offering a hybrid of work with new pieces that are relevant to everyone and not just 'developing new audiences'... I would like to see the audience already out there inspired and encouraged to try opera - (as you say Hamilton my have mics but it is essentially a modern operetta) - not on a grand large scale necessarily but new work written and developed from local stories with professionals and the community. I am excited, and always remain hopeful that we can change the ebb of the tide.
This is a good point about non building based organisations. When I started out writing there were a few around who would put on scratch nights. All good training for the discipline of writing short pieces to a deadline. Doesn’t seem to be so many now or maybe I’m just out of the loop. Think one of the problems was finding space to rehearse and perform. Another area where perhaps Aviva could step in. Free rehearsal and workshop space would be a massive boon to struggling writers and performers.
I bought a ticket to Hamilton at the Palace on the day for £38, i.e. about 2 hours work at an average wage or 3 1/2 hours at minimum wage.
What was the average hourly wage in 1960s New York? The US minimum wage at the end of the sixties was $1.40, so pretty much the same ratio for that $5 ticket.
Besides, Manchester is not New York, and in London in summer you can still go to the opera or ballet (Royal Opera House, not ENO) the Proms or to Shakespeares Globe for less than a tenner
Mention is made in one of the comments about Hamilton. Is Hamilton part of the Arts?
The performances, as many at the Palace and Opera House, are full every night, at seat prices much higher than many arts venues, with many people who, I'm guessing, wouldn't call themselves middle class.
Yep, great point. Hamilton is certainly the Arts and in fact Dave Moutrey mentioned the popularity of Hamilton in our chat. I should have included that. I think you're right to point out that these more commercial venues are doing very well.
'Our cultural life (in Manchester) did not begin with a festival in 2007, nor with a nightclub in 1982' ...how right you are Phil.
I loved the Library Theatre and The Free Trade Hall in the 60s and early 70s. We didn't have huge venues to hear and experience contemporary music then though, we had to make do with cinemas putting on pop acts or 'gigs' as they're referred to now if they weren't playing the FTH. A more intimate affair and definitely a deeper connection was forged with the artist, I feel.
! manchesters parochial audience? i dont think so. if all else fails blame the people
2 the transition from the library theater to home has been a real tragedy for theater ; they did plays which had resonance with a wide audience .
3 if you take 50% of the young people out of their home environment to go to university elsewhere its unsurprising that the remainder have a limited appreciation of a culture which is not part of their everyday experience. The experience of the grandfather is totally irrelevant( i write as someone who can also quote in aid working class grand and parents but choose not to).
4 on a financial note why should an art form which is enjoyed by a very small group of people ( opera) receive public subsidy at the level it does when other forms of cultural experience( football) get nothing?
Hi Steve, really interesting to read your comments, I too miss the Library. On point 4, I am a working class kid who now directs opera - and I can honestly say that it is not the elite art form most people think. Yes, there is the Glyndebourne (no subsidy) and ROH (lots of subsidy) but there are also great companies like Opera North and Welsh National whose work in the community really does change lives, I know because I have led many community opera and a main stage production that has filled the Millenium Centre with ordinary working class people. I wasn't exposed to it until I was 32; as a working class farmers daughter from Bury that kind of thing was 'not for the likes of me'... but I hope that one day we will have a new opera in Manchester with Manchester stories and that we will have Manchester enjoying acoustic singing and music playing that really does uplift and inspire. This has been my experience and I have seen it transform communities and uplift people to university because of it. I hope ENO will employ our talented musicians and singers that choose to live in the NW but always have to travel after training at the RNCM. We will see.
This is exactly the kind of thing we should be singing from the rooftops (pun intended). Like you, I wasn’t exposed to the theatre until I was in my thirties. The third time I visited the theatre I was in my fifties and it was to see something I’d written myself being performed at the Contact. I would absolutely support anybody getting involved in opera or theatre at whatever age they come to it.
Very little opera in Manchester, quite a strong classical music culture in the city though not on the scale of football of course.
Manchester council did 'pump prime' football's recovery in Manchester proper with the building of the City of Manchester Stadium...
And the Lottery also supports grassroots football and football clubs outreach programs quite generously (making the owners of the big clubs look generous, sometimes mostly with other people's money...).
A question for David Moutrey he might be able to answer in these comments: does his newly expanded roll as MCC’s full time Director of Culture include in his remit Factory International and MIF?
I believe Dave is a Mill member but he may have found the essay-length (and excellent) comments in this discussion intimidating and decided not to take part. My understanding is that HOME has got the same contractual arrangements with the city council as Aviva Studios. Ie, in both, the city council don't get involved in artistic arrangements. The council sets the business framework - and then Factory International delivers that. It's something like a service level agreement. Once he's up and running in the role full time we should ask for more detail on that.
I can only speak for HOME, but this sums up the arrangement well. It is an SLA with HOME contracted to deliver a certain number of performances/exhibitions, be open a certain number of days etc. Incidentally, this contractual arrangement really helps with VAT recovery which is a massive deal for cultural institutions who often have to incur most of the VAT on costs.
as a counterbalance you should have interviewed Gina Frost and John Topliff who ran Three Minute Theatre on Oldham Street for a decade on less than shoestring and little or no public money. Yet they produced great work and reached audiences that probably never went near Home, MIF etc ...This article by Bernadette Hyland in the Morning Star in 2015 is still very relevant " A Tale of Two Tents" https://web.archive.org/web/20150815070913/https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-9220-A-tale-of-two-tents#.Vc7lo3bP32d