1. Government changes university funding so the vast majority of income needs to come in via tuition fees
2. Government caps fees for home undergraduate students and increases this cap by less than 3% in 12 years
3. To make ends meet, universities increase numbers and fees for international students
4. Competition for these students is fierce, so universities drop their standards for international students
I know many of us bemoan the fact that universities have become "money making" machines, but most of this was forced upon them by the Government.
If any business had the price of their products or services capped for over a decade, no one would question it if the quality of some products or services declined. This is the only logical outcome of successive governments forcing universities to become so market-driven, and only they can sort this out by sorting out the funding model.
When I was working in university admissions, an issue I saw was that the actual English language ability of students often did not seem to correspond with their IELTS results. So the majority of students with an overall 6.5 were more than capable of higher level courses but there would be the odd student who had more than met the requirements but when they got here you'd find they could not hold a basic conversation and were in no way ready to study on their course. Equally, there would be students who had struggled to meet the requirements but when they got here, after several tests, their English was great.
There are two real possibilities here - either the English language tests used are not sufficient or there is fraud going on. Both are to done extent probably true.
There is naturally an incentive to work to the rest rather than truly learning the language - that's unavoidable with any test system. Occasionally an academic would float the idea of an English language interview before admission, but that would be incredibly resource intensive and difficult to standardise. The students would also still need to do the officially recognised tests anyway to meet visa requirements, so you're testing the same thing twice.
With regard to fraud, there are processes in place to check the IELTS results student provide are genuine and that they were the ones that took the test. Anyone who provides a doctored certificate is weeded out very quickly. The issue is what goes on in the test centres. Its hard to prove without being there, but there were a very small number of students who it was difficult to believe actually took the tests they had the certificate for.
All this is particularly difficult for one year masters courses because there isn't usually an opportunity to remove a student until after the second semester exam results, when they've already done the majority of the programme and all of the group work, as for most courses even if you fail all of semester one you could still pass the course with good results in semester two and resits. I don't think introducing some form of pass or fail English test early in the progamme would really be viable - for one, there is little space in the timetable in masters programmes as it is.
In the sixties Anna ford started a society called the international society which was a social group of international students and British students that help each other taught each other languages and and there English improved, in the start of the 2000 the society moved into William Kay house because Martin Harris realised that international students were what the university needed to help with there budget but also new they needed help to set into British life so more classes could be set and English was taught because students met socially and the staff grew at the society and more funds where allocated to do the jobs the students were met of the plane when they arrived in the uk and they were taken to Fallowfield were they stayed for the week and taken to Asda to get the foods and toiletries show where to get halal foods or other places for dietary needs sign up for doctors dentists even the police came and talk to them about security and they all had a great experience even now many years later me and my wife still talk to our old students that are thriving back in there own countries and some stayed working in jobs that help this country but sadly the money men took over the university and all these great things were cut back and the international society is barely still going just a little office in the student union just so the union can keep the funds or what’s left of them and now they arrive they are on there own and left to them selfs staying with there fellow country men and not expending there English or there love of our country some students were hosted buy local families and show around and all these events and hosting of students was voluntary and cost the university was very little money compared to what they grab of the students now it’s a shame but glad I’ve retired and don’t have to see how bad it has become but I do have great memories
Sorry John I’m Dyslexic when you were educated in the sixties and seventies you put a back of the classroom and given paper and crayons to play with even though I can’t read and write very well I was very good at maths , I used to use cosines and tangents when I was in engineering as a toolmaker which is just daft but there you go that’s why I don’t comment on here that often hope this helps you
Manchester University has build up an overreliance upon Chinese students which may disadvantage both local and overseas students.This is not new as I recall a Korean student on my business masters degree over 20 years ago at a university near to London who could not speak English to a higher level and struggled with the group presentations and class participation (this student left after the second term). The fact that many foreign students mix only within their fellow nationals is troubling as we all know that the Chinese government has attempted to assert control over their political involvement on campus.
Having completed an MSc there (over 10 years ago now), I don't think this is a new issue, though it may have worsened since I was there. I did feel sorry for many of the international students who really struggled and paid a lot of money to come here, and didn't really get a fair shake. Some had really great English and thrived, others really struggled. In a fair system, the latter shouldn't have been allowed to spend so much money for an education that they struggled to understand.
My father was also a university lecturer (not Manchester) and saw a lot of similar issues where he worked. Regrettably, it seems that the financial incentives across the sector are all there to try to maximise the number of international students, take the money, and not look too hard at whether this is an equitable system for all concerned.
In my view the responsibility rests with the students. If they choose to attend Manchester University knowing that their spoken English is poor, then they have to accept the consequences.
Well yes, international students do have a responsibility to ensure they are ready for study in an English speaking country, but, as the article points out, universities also bear a share of the responsibility; indeed, given the huge fees they charge, I would say a greater share of the responsibility. You also underestimate how much a desire, even desperation, to gain a UK education is exploited by unscrupulous English language schools and agencies who ease candidates through IELTS tests, write their applications, and promise to get students into a prestigious university. I worked at Manchester University and remember one such student whose spoken English was so poor they needed an interpreter and who eventually owned up to having paid an agency in Longsight £3000 to "process" their application.
Nothing you have said takes away the responsibility of the student.
Indeed your example supports my point. This student obviously knew their English was not good enough, which is why the paid the agency to write it for them.
I worked at Manchester University. Around twenty years ago we investigated the performance of a large cohort of international students and found that while their average first-year marks were very similar to those of home students, by the time they graduated they were averaging something like a degree class lower. This arose because much of the first year assessment was, even then, conducted as multiple choice assessments that required little writing, and because often their mathematical skills were better than the home students, whereas by the final year much more emphasis rested on the ability to write well. I am sure little has changed.
Very much not a new issue. My father was a professor at Manchester University 50 years ago and I remember him telling me about a student who sent in a perfectly worded application but when they turned up could hardly speak English.
I taught at the university of Liverpool for 5 years and it was exactly the same. You've raised all the nuance, the issues on both ends. It's producing really difficult and often disappointing learning and cultural experiences. Although I do remember many examples where international students really thrived, but that was often an exception. Follow the money. That's the root of this.
As ever, you have raised an important issue. One point I’d like to add from personal experience.
I came across few serious examples of language skills so poor as to make the University experience at Manchester worthless for student or teacher.
One case example. A Taiwanese student arrived who struggled with her English even at the end of her successful PhD. She is now a distinguished professor at a leading University back in Taiwan.
I remember my daughter who was studying for an English lit PhD at Warwick commenting that there was an overseas student on the course who would struggle with GCSE English.
1. Government changes university funding so the vast majority of income needs to come in via tuition fees
2. Government caps fees for home undergraduate students and increases this cap by less than 3% in 12 years
3. To make ends meet, universities increase numbers and fees for international students
4. Competition for these students is fierce, so universities drop their standards for international students
I know many of us bemoan the fact that universities have become "money making" machines, but most of this was forced upon them by the Government.
If any business had the price of their products or services capped for over a decade, no one would question it if the quality of some products or services declined. This is the only logical outcome of successive governments forcing universities to become so market-driven, and only they can sort this out by sorting out the funding model.
When I was working in university admissions, an issue I saw was that the actual English language ability of students often did not seem to correspond with their IELTS results. So the majority of students with an overall 6.5 were more than capable of higher level courses but there would be the odd student who had more than met the requirements but when they got here you'd find they could not hold a basic conversation and were in no way ready to study on their course. Equally, there would be students who had struggled to meet the requirements but when they got here, after several tests, their English was great.
There are two real possibilities here - either the English language tests used are not sufficient or there is fraud going on. Both are to done extent probably true.
There is naturally an incentive to work to the rest rather than truly learning the language - that's unavoidable with any test system. Occasionally an academic would float the idea of an English language interview before admission, but that would be incredibly resource intensive and difficult to standardise. The students would also still need to do the officially recognised tests anyway to meet visa requirements, so you're testing the same thing twice.
With regard to fraud, there are processes in place to check the IELTS results student provide are genuine and that they were the ones that took the test. Anyone who provides a doctored certificate is weeded out very quickly. The issue is what goes on in the test centres. Its hard to prove without being there, but there were a very small number of students who it was difficult to believe actually took the tests they had the certificate for.
All this is particularly difficult for one year masters courses because there isn't usually an opportunity to remove a student until after the second semester exam results, when they've already done the majority of the programme and all of the group work, as for most courses even if you fail all of semester one you could still pass the course with good results in semester two and resits. I don't think introducing some form of pass or fail English test early in the progamme would really be viable - for one, there is little space in the timetable in masters programmes as it is.
In the sixties Anna ford started a society called the international society which was a social group of international students and British students that help each other taught each other languages and and there English improved, in the start of the 2000 the society moved into William Kay house because Martin Harris realised that international students were what the university needed to help with there budget but also new they needed help to set into British life so more classes could be set and English was taught because students met socially and the staff grew at the society and more funds where allocated to do the jobs the students were met of the plane when they arrived in the uk and they were taken to Fallowfield were they stayed for the week and taken to Asda to get the foods and toiletries show where to get halal foods or other places for dietary needs sign up for doctors dentists even the police came and talk to them about security and they all had a great experience even now many years later me and my wife still talk to our old students that are thriving back in there own countries and some stayed working in jobs that help this country but sadly the money men took over the university and all these great things were cut back and the international society is barely still going just a little office in the student union just so the union can keep the funds or what’s left of them and now they arrive they are on there own and left to them selfs staying with there fellow country men and not expending there English or there love of our country some students were hosted buy local families and show around and all these events and hosting of students was voluntary and cost the university was very little money compared to what they grab of the students now it’s a shame but glad I’ve retired and don’t have to see how bad it has become but I do have great memories
Have you deliberately put approximately 40 English errors into this comment?
I also noticed that but felt no need to comment as I thought it would be unkind
He's the only person who has talked about a potential solution to this issue, and given some further historical background relevant to the article.
Which is more important to you - that or grammar?
Sorry John I’m Dyslexic when you were educated in the sixties and seventies you put a back of the classroom and given paper and crayons to play with even though I can’t read and write very well I was very good at maths , I used to use cosines and tangents when I was in engineering as a toolmaker which is just daft but there you go that’s why I don’t comment on here that often hope this helps you
Manchester University has build up an overreliance upon Chinese students which may disadvantage both local and overseas students.This is not new as I recall a Korean student on my business masters degree over 20 years ago at a university near to London who could not speak English to a higher level and struggled with the group presentations and class participation (this student left after the second term). The fact that many foreign students mix only within their fellow nationals is troubling as we all know that the Chinese government has attempted to assert control over their political involvement on campus.
Having completed an MSc there (over 10 years ago now), I don't think this is a new issue, though it may have worsened since I was there. I did feel sorry for many of the international students who really struggled and paid a lot of money to come here, and didn't really get a fair shake. Some had really great English and thrived, others really struggled. In a fair system, the latter shouldn't have been allowed to spend so much money for an education that they struggled to understand.
My father was also a university lecturer (not Manchester) and saw a lot of similar issues where he worked. Regrettably, it seems that the financial incentives across the sector are all there to try to maximise the number of international students, take the money, and not look too hard at whether this is an equitable system for all concerned.
Another excellent Mill article.
In my view the responsibility rests with the students. If they choose to attend Manchester University knowing that their spoken English is poor, then they have to accept the consequences.
Yes that’s true don’t come here until you speak English isn’t that what reform and the NF tell all people who are not from Britain
Well yes, international students do have a responsibility to ensure they are ready for study in an English speaking country, but, as the article points out, universities also bear a share of the responsibility; indeed, given the huge fees they charge, I would say a greater share of the responsibility. You also underestimate how much a desire, even desperation, to gain a UK education is exploited by unscrupulous English language schools and agencies who ease candidates through IELTS tests, write their applications, and promise to get students into a prestigious university. I worked at Manchester University and remember one such student whose spoken English was so poor they needed an interpreter and who eventually owned up to having paid an agency in Longsight £3000 to "process" their application.
Nothing you have said takes away the responsibility of the student.
Indeed your example supports my point. This student obviously knew their English was not good enough, which is why the paid the agency to write it for them.
I worked at Manchester University. Around twenty years ago we investigated the performance of a large cohort of international students and found that while their average first-year marks were very similar to those of home students, by the time they graduated they were averaging something like a degree class lower. This arose because much of the first year assessment was, even then, conducted as multiple choice assessments that required little writing, and because often their mathematical skills were better than the home students, whereas by the final year much more emphasis rested on the ability to write well. I am sure little has changed.
Very much not a new issue. My father was a professor at Manchester University 50 years ago and I remember him telling me about a student who sent in a perfectly worded application but when they turned up could hardly speak English.
I taught at the university of Liverpool for 5 years and it was exactly the same. You've raised all the nuance, the issues on both ends. It's producing really difficult and often disappointing learning and cultural experiences. Although I do remember many examples where international students really thrived, but that was often an exception. Follow the money. That's the root of this.
As ever, you have raised an important issue. One point I’d like to add from personal experience.
I came across few serious examples of language skills so poor as to make the University experience at Manchester worthless for student or teacher.
One case example. A Taiwanese student arrived who struggled with her English even at the end of her successful PhD. She is now a distinguished professor at a leading University back in Taiwan.
I remember my daughter who was studying for an English lit PhD at Warwick commenting that there was an overseas student on the course who would struggle with GCSE English.
This was half a decade ago.
Yes, this rings true sadly. I noticed this when I was a guest lecturer for a couple of years at another Russell Group university.